PW 344: Consent is sexy

Embracing Yes Means Yes and the fact that consent is sexy

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1:00 Announcements and host chat

  • No holiday chat here, just good kerfuffles of the week with LustyGuy cohosting

3:15 Topic: Nice guys rape, too

As part of the Good Men Project, Alyssa Royse penned this piece trying to explain that nice guys can commit rape, unbeknownst to them. The backlash against her piece has been significant. Our key objections:

  • Saying that women give off “mixed signals” is not only wrong but irrelevant; it can come off as a rape apology
  • Agreed that “no means no” does not work
  • However, “yes means yes” does work 100% of the time

Backlash pieces:

21:45 Topic: Pink loves consent

A group of feminists in Baltimore coordinated a masterful spoof of Victoria’s Secret PINK site, which is typically targeted at teen and college-age women and bears thongs sporting motifs such as “Sure Thing” printed on skimpy thongs. PinkLovesConsent was such a pitch-perfect spoof of the site (now bearing panties sporting “Ask First” and “No Means No”) that even VS employees believed it to be real and congratulated the company on its embracing of women’s issues.

Sadly, Victoria’s Secret had nothing to do with it. But wouldn’t it be great if they had?

26:35 Happy Poly Moment

  • Irina shares a happy poly moment about a kick-ass metamour
  • Alicia shares a happy poly moment of being welcomed into a relationship

30:00 Feedback

  • Joreth writes in to correct evolutionary assumptions in episodes 333, 336 and 340 on the upsuck theory
  • Jenny makes a point about compulsions in response to episode 309 on sex addiction

34:00 Wrap up

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8 comments to PW 344: Consent is sexy

  • Fred O'Connor

    In terms of “yes == yes”, for those gentleman who have been raped, a hardon is not (necessarily) a yes. Thank you for the insights you (continue) to bring to the world.

    Have a good new year!

  • Olaf

    Hmmm “nice guy” in the sentence with “rape”
    This does not compute. Something is very wrong in here.

    The very moment you use the word “rape” and point a finger to a person, the which hunt starts and this guy is being hunted by feminist+ followers. You light aswel point a fully loaded gun at this nice guys head and pull the trigger.

    The have met a lot of nice guys, and the last thing these people want is to rape someone. They are a nice guy because they don’t want to be the bad guy. There is a reason why nice guys stay single, because they never taken initiative because they are afraid to hurt the one they are in love with. And these people will definitely not way until a woman sleeps to have sex with them. They will protect the woman and block their own sexuality even when they are as horny as hell.

    One of the side effects of nice guys is that they lack understanding of social interaction with women. They way and analyse and analyse and wait until get a very clear signal from the woman that she wants it. The woman will have to initiate sex because the nice guy won’t set the first step.

    And the worst part is that you can easily influence a nice guy into believing and admitting that he did a bad thing. Even when it is not true, and the woman initiated first sexual contact but she was drunk and does not remember that she initiated first with a clear signal. Maybe she was dreaming of having sex with someone and grabbed the nice guy and then woke up.

    “Nice” guys only initiate sexual contacts when they got a very clear signal from a woman that she wants it, and in most of the cases that is when the woman takes it and puts it in herself. This is what “Nice” guys do. Nice guys don’t ever want to be the bad guy that rapes or hurts someone.

    More proof that he would never take initiative is that she flirts with him and sits on his lap for a long period and he never initiated to do more.

    There is no clear proof that this can be called rape!
    But the moment you call it rape then the nice guy gets hunted down and no nice guy will ever dare to go near that women ever again because they are afraid. From that moment on she will only attract bad persons that just don’t care.

    (I will put a second post later because it is complicated)

  • Olaf

    Bad guys and regular guys will not care what the woman feels.
    The likelihood that a woman will yell that she is being raped will be directly depending if this person is a good lover or good looking. If she wakes up and the person is ugly, stinking, old or a moron, then she will call him a rapist.

    If he looks like Brad Pit or he gives wonderful sex than she will never claim that she was raped. And this man will also never admit that he raped her. (Remember this is not a nice guy that can easily convinced that he did a bad things)

    My point is that you only claim that it is “rape” when you are 100% sure that it is rape. If you are not careful with that word then you create a paranoid environment where women start to see rapist everywhere and it comes to a point that you just killed off all good men because they are afraid that they might be classified a rapist. And because the lack of good men taking initiative means that you create a free buffet for all evil men that just don’t care and go for it no matter what you think or say.

    In my life I have met a lot of single woman that complained that they don’t find a good man. But when you observer the actions of these single women than they completely destroy every single good men when he does not meet her expectations. Good men don’t want her any more because they got burned. Bad men don’t care when they get burned.

  • Olaf

    From the article.
    The rapist is just a person who may genuinely not realize that what he’s doing is rape.

    This sentence is so wrong. Sooo very wrong.
    (I am going to over-dramatize)

    The problem is the word “RAPE”. The word “RAPE’ used in the nice guy situation is just like throwing a hydrogen bomb on the nice guy. And the fall-out destroys civilisations.

    * It makes you paranoid. The start to see rapist everywhere. In the street, at school, at work, your neighbours, your family literately everywhere and you are surrounded by rapist that are trying to get you. Tell horror stories how many time you heard people being raped by just a nice guy and no women ever will dare to come out any-more. Hey she might have been raped many times and she didn’t knew it.

    * It makes good people scared because the women already acts paranoid and by merely looking in their direction you could be accused that you wanted to rape her. You could be accused that you raped her because she made advances to you and you refused. You could get accused as being a rapist by a jealous partner. As a good person really trying hard not to abuse, rape. and the thought that you might accidentally rape someone even with you not realizing is more than enough to kill yourself just in case you would go too far without you realizing it.

    * It stop all initiation contact of good males, because you created a situation where being accused of rape, without you even being aware of it that you did do it, destroys your life completely.

    * You are completely unable to educate people, including nice guys not to have sex without consent because since you use the word “RAPE” in your sentence, every other message that is coming after is being lost.

    We really need a new word that describes this situation where you do not get stoned to death when you accidentally crossed the line without realizing it. We need a new word where people can learn from the mistake that they made and learn how to not cross that line next time.

    We as poly people have created new words to describe situations that is in the mindset of monogamous people is so evil that you would be stoned to death because you are unfaithful. There is a reason why poly people do not call themselves “cheaters”. Poly people do cross a line that would be the equivalent of “rape” to the average person.
    Poly people have no intention to cheat on their partners, and neither does a nice guy intend to rape a person.

  • Sorry this is late but I just listened to the podcast.
    I did my doctoral dissertation on Consent with college students. You can read it at http://www.ejhs.org/volume1/consent1.htm This was initially a study of saying NO when you mean YES.
    Also on consent: http://www.ejhs.org/volume1/burrow/burrow.htm http://www.ejhs.org/volume8/heavy_drinking.htm
    A very interesting book review that discusses the subject: http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/book3.htm
    We also published a vignette study in which the aggressor’s overall behavior was labeled as date/acquaintance rape by only 52.9% of participants for the vignette involving physical resistance and intercourse. “College students’ judgements regarding sexual aggression during a date”. Hannon, R., Kuntz, T., Van Laar, S., Williams, J., & Hall, D.S. Sex Roles, Vol. 35, No. 11/12, 1996.
    While the event you discussed was technically rape, the subject of consent is far more complex in most people’s minds.
    Hope to see you again next time I am in Seattle, met you first at Poly Living. Keep up the good work.

  • My concern with the whole “no means no” thing, in that how often is it misused…women are confused by it, men are confused by it…people far too often say no, but mean maybe or yes and this cause the conflict for when no actually does mean no. It’s an almost cry wolf situation, the whole playing hard to get…NO should mean NO and YES should be used openly and honestly instead of causing an kind of confusion!!! x

  • Cunning Minx

    Jack–

    This is why I’ve become a proponent of “yes means yes.” It works far better than “no means no” because it requires EXPLICIT CONSENT EVERY TIME. No guesses, no body language, no implications or inferences. Not sure? Ask. Get a yes. Then carry on.

  • I am a big believer in that honesty is the way forward…explicit openness about what I want or do not want. Upon expressing this, people are usually more honest about their desires an all…I like the “yes means yes”…there is no confusion then!! x

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